Saltcorner
By Bob Goemans
By Bob Goemans
Bob:
I would like to start by saying I am an avid reader of your FAMA column and have acquired all of your books over the years. I read your March 2008 FAMA article describing an alternative treatment to marine parasites, and after reading the article I immediately obtained your new book which, of course, is excellent in all aspects. So now for my story........,
I've been battling ich for YEARS. It seems to be an on going problem no matter what course of action I take. Last year I had another outbreak wherein I lost most of my fish. At that point I took out the remaining fish and found new homes for them and left the tank with no fish for two months. As I started to restock, after 8 weeks of quarantine which included a two week period of hyposalinity, guess what? Ich again......very frustrating. So, you could imagine the new optimism I have after reading your article. I obtained 25 grams of chloroquine phosphate and began treatment on Friday and I have a few questions. I believe I have accurately calculated the total gallons at 180, which according to what I've read in your book would require a dose of approximately 7.2 grams. My concern is how do I know if that is a good therapeutic dose? I question it because I have not seen any significant changes with the fish and the couple of cleaner shrimp and blue leg hermit crabs still left in the tank seem fine with no ill effects. Is it too soon to tell after 5 days? Do I need to wait 21 days before I can repeat treatment if necessary? Currently I am not running hyposalinity but if a repeat treatment is necessary I will consider doing that.
Basic system information:
* FOWLR (except for the 3 shrimp and 2 crabs) 210 gallon tank with 75 gal sump. Total actual water volume 180 gallons
* Ozone, UV and skimmer all turned off
* Approx. 200 lbs of live rock.
* 55 gallon refugium. Currently running offline.
* Temp:76
* ORP 350 (without ozone injection, Usually maintained at 395)
* pH 8.2
* Ammonia and nitrite are zero, and nitrate under 5ppm
I'm just concerned about what I should do next. I'm trying to be patient but I don't want to lose any more fish.
On another note.......I obtained the chloroquine phosphate from the recommended supplier, Spectrum Chemical. I obtained the 25g bottle for $43. When I was doing an Internet search I found another company selling the same product but it was $125 for 1000g. Is it really the same product? Any thoughts?
Thank you for all of you excellent advice over the years and I hope to finally rid myself of Ich once and for all.
Gene Lotardo
Hi Gene,
Thanks for the nice words about the column and book, and sorry for the delay getting back to you, but severe family health problems have prevented me from answering much of my email this past couple of weeks. In fact, two close family members are still in ICU in different local hospitals, with one my son-in-law who received an artificial heart. Nevertheless, during this overwhelming timeframe I decided to forward your letter to my co-author for his thoughts, and in doing so, reduce the mail needing my full attention. Below is his answer, and below that I have added some additional comments.
Dear Gene Lotardo,
It is easy for me to appreciate your dismay and frustration with fish diseases. I have experienced the full spectrum of those feelings myself and have made the study of fish diseases a life's pursuit. The following is a "check-list" of considerations and actions that if followed, will reduce negative experiences with fish diseases and will hopefully help to enhance your love of the animals and the hobby:
1. Is it always Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans)? Many diseases resemble one another to the naked eye and can only be definitely determined with a microscope. Therefore if you are treating for one problem it could be another.
2. All in and all out: Quarantine should always be an "all in all out" process. If you have a fish or several in the Q system and then bring home another and put it in with the others, you are starting all over and must then keep all of them for the full 30 to 60 days.
A. Ideally the SG (specific gravity/salinity) should be kept at very low (hypo-salinity) levels and should be about 1.013 s.g. I am presuming that there are NO invertebrates in that system. The specific gravity level should not be a gradual change, but should be a sudden change. Please note, that it is important before the fish are returned to the display tank with an SG of 1.020 or higher, the quarantine tank should have the salt level raised a little each day. Return the fish to the main tank when the levels are the same.
B. It is best to also provide the fish with a low stress environment as much as possible. They should have good hiding places. Plastic store decorations (with no metal parts) or plain ol' PVC pipe parts are very good, cheap, and easy to clean and to move about.
C. Low light helps to reduce stress as well as stable temperatures, and regular good food, and as always, excellent water quality.
3. Treating the display tank: Although a tedious operation, removing all fish from your display tank is a good course of action, and since Ich is an obligate parasite, isolating the system with no host for 60 days (in theory) should eliminate the parasite from it. One of my experiences actually required the system to be free of fish for 90 days. (Diseases are very determined organisms). This would be the best method if there are invertebrates (includes live rock) in the system.
4. Fish diseases can travel in with invertebrates: Most stores (and wholesalers too) do not keep their corals, clams, shrimps, crabs (invertebrates) in separate systems from their fish systems. Therefore when introducing a beautiful and prized new coral (or other) it is possible to also introduce fish diseases.
5. Neither activated carbon nor other treated "poly filter", phosphate removers etc. should be in the system: These items may remove or reduce the required treatment level of the medication that you are using. Plain, untreated filter pads are good to remove particulate material in the water.
Gene, based on the formula found in our book, the calculation of your dosage appears to be accurate, and 10 ppm has been the recommended concentration for Chloroquine. The medication is photo-sensitive and as such, light denatures the drug's effectiveness and it is recommended that the treatment be conducted in a system without any lights (particularly high-intensity metal halides). Additional information indicates that initial dosages may need to be followed up with 10 ppm doses, at least once a week. There is a test for Chloroquine levels, but is expensive, and requires sophisticated equipment not normally possessed by the typical hobbyist. There is also a report of one institution starting out with an initial dose of 20 ppm, with many other institutions recommending subsequent weekly doses of 10 ppm for four weeks total. They found that some of the parasites, which they encountered, were either resistant to the lower concentration, or that perhaps the medication initially administered lost effectiveness in a short period of time, falling below therapeutic levels. The fact that you have not seen any significant changes may be related to some of the conditions stated above or suggested criteria not met, and we agree that weekly administrations for a minimum of four treatments would be advisable, again based on the parasite's life-cycle. How is it that you determine that the disease remains? Do the fish still exhibit spots despite all of your treatments?
Although Spectrum is one source of the medication, we have identified many other suppliers, which we have purchased Chloroquine from. Although the range of pricing appears to be dramatic, the compound appears to be equally good, even at substantially lower prices. We have even found one vendor who sells it at about $80.00 per kilo!
In closing, I would like to stress that it is important to follow the guidelines, treat faithfully and keep all medications at their recommended levels. Some studies are showing that treatment resistant strains of diseases are now in existence due to the premature termination of treatment or chronic exposure to sub-standard levels.
I thank you for reading the book and hope that you find this additional information helpful and encouraging.
Lance Ichinotsubo
Hi Gene,
All of Lance's thoughts above are excellent, but since I want to use your letter in a future Sand Mail column because it will no doubt help other aquarists, which is the goal with our new book "The Marine Fish Health and Feeding Handbook," there are some additional aspects I want to note so future aquarists contacting us have even more helpful data within their letters. This would include what fish species are in the aquarium, what has been lost and what was their outward condition when lost, the present age/size/quantity of fish in the tank, what is fed and how often. Reader experience level is another factor that sometimes helps resolve ongoing problems, as inexperienced hobbyists may miss vital cues.
Of course, water quality and how it's maintained is a 'very' important topic, such as what level water changes are accomplished and how often, and levels of important parameters, e.g., ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, specific gravity, and temperature. In fact, poor quarantine procedures, poor water quality, and poor nutrition, in that exact order, are the main causes of why hobbyists lose some of their animals! And yes, you gave us some of that info, which was quite helpful.
I also want to note here that for the last couple of months since our book came out, a local shop began using chloroquine phosphate in their 1000-gallon fish quarantine system. They are 'exceedingly' happy with the product and report they have not lost a single fish, except for a couple that were extremely damaged when they arrived. Furthermore, they say having a quarantine system where there is no longer a problem with excessive ammonia since this med does not kill filtration bacteria, is another blessing in their opinion! There are just big smiles every time I walk into their shop!
And as to purchasing this product, there is a wholesale company we both can recommend, however, they do not sell retail. Therefore I recommend contacting one of your local shops, as I have done, and fully explain the benefits behind using this med and that they may want to try it in their quarantine system and if satisfied, make it available to their clients. The name of this company is: Fishman Chemicals, 215 Ojibway Ave.,Tavernier, FL 33070, ph: (305) 852-612, fax: (305) 852-6272, www.fishchemical.com.
Hope this helps, and please keep us updated.
Bob
Hi Bob and Lance:
Thanks for your past answer and thought I should give you an up date on what's happened since, and what I decided to do. The system is as follows with a little more detail than what I gave before:
* Tank: Standard 210 gallon all glass aquarium
* Sump: 75 gallons with wet dry
* Refugium: 55 gallon with a 4 inch sandbed and filled with Chaetomorpha (offline during treatment)
* Skimmer: Downdraft ETS 600 (offline during treatment)
* Ozone: 200mg Ozotech unit run through an MTC Ozone reactor (offline during treatment)
* UV: 40W (offline during treatment)
* Lighting: Two 160W VHO and Two NO 36W Actinic
* Temp: 77 using a 500W Jali unit
* 200lbs live rock
* pH 8.2; Ammonia 0; Nitrite 0; Nitrate less than 5ppm; ORP 395 (ORP 340 without ozone injection)
* I use Pinpoint monitor/controller for pH and ORP. These are calibrated regularly.
* Nitrite measured with Salifert kit, Nitrate with Instant Ocean kit. pH also re-checked with Instant Ocean kit.
Quarantine system:
* Tank: 50-gallon All Glass Aquarium
* 15W UV
* Large Aquaclear power filter.
* CPR Backpack skimmer
* NO 20W florescent
* Deco: multiple PVC plants, etc
* All in all I think an excellent QT system
Last weekend was when I was seriously considering leaving the saltwater hobby. The battles I've been having with parasites over the YEARS have been very frustrating. This hobby is supposed to bring pleasure not anxiety. It's stressful to lose any fish and I'm not just talking about the financial losses. I feel these fish come from the wild and there is a certain level of responsibility to keeping these animals. So after losing 2/3 of the fish I decided to take the following course of action: though I did think about completely sterilizing the system as a last resort.
On Friday 2/22 I began to lower the SG from 1.022 to 1.009. This procedure took until Sunday 2/24 using multiple water changes with RO water. By Monday morning the SG was now 1.009 and I added 1 1/2 teaspoons of chloroquine phosphate. I estimated my total gallons at 180 and with the recommended treatment of 40 mg per gal, this equates to 7.2 grams or approx. 11/2 teaspoons.
Observations: At the time I began the new treatment the fish still had signs of cysts on their bodies. BTW The remaining fish are 5 chromis, flamehawk, rabbitfish, bluethroat trigger, 3 convict tangs. It is now Saturday 3/1 and I noticed the fish were looking amazingly better. No signs of cysts. I don't know if it was the chloroquine phosphate or the lower SG. But certainly between the two, things look good. I did notice by using the chloroquine phosphate I have no algae in the tank. This was expected as the chloroquine kills the algae. I also had some cyanobacteria that seem to have been reduced, most likely because it's a photosynthetic bacteria. Based on your suggestion I am planning on adding another dose of the chloroquine either Monday or Tuesday. I hoping that in four weeks that whatever parasite was in my tank, it will be eliminated. I do have a couple of fish in my QT system (Hippo tang, yellow tang and flamehawk, all inherited from another hobbyist) that will be the test if the system is fine or not.
Before introducing them I have a couple of questions. First, do I introduce them with the SG at 1.009 and then raise it back with them in the main tank or raise the SG first? Second can a put a second flamehawk in the tank? I'm thinking the tank seems large enough but you never know.
Thanks for all of you help and I hope my experience will have a positive outcome that can be shared with others.
Gene Lotardo Merrick, NY
Dear Gene:
I think I speak for both Bob and I when I say that we are very happy to hear things are turning around for you. We have no doubt that your fish are looking better, and although the hyposalinity contributes to the success of the procedure as a synergistic component, the Chloroquine is actually what is affecting the parasite the most. We are especially pleased to help hobbyists become successful and to give them reason to remain in the hobby.
Gene- what is the specific gravity of your quarantine system? How long have these fish been in quarantine, and have you treated them prophylactically with any medications? If you have not treated with anything yet, it would be wise to treat them with Chloroquine weekly @10 ppm for upwards of four weeks as well. Once they are ready to be moved, it would be fine to just introduce them into the main system at hyposalinity conditions (I am assuming that they were kept in hyposalinity conditions during quarantine). Remember to raise the specific gravity up gradually (no more than @ .002 increase per day) until you reach the desired level.
As for having two flame hawks in the same tank, I think it will remain to be seen. I have seen a few aquariums where two flame hawks actually got along great, but it is speculated that the hawks were probably of opposite sex, and they paired off. I think your aquarium is probably large enough to hold two hawks, but it is impossible to say for sure whether or not any two particular fish will get along.
Finally, thank you for your willingness to try new things.
Best Regards,
Lance Ichinotsubo
Hi Gene,
Have again forwarded your letter to Lance while taking care of emergency family health problems. In fact, my son-in-law now has a new heart, and was home in seven days after the operation. His surgeon, Dr. Copeland, say's he is a 'poster-child' as that's the earliest anyone has been able to leave the hospital after receiving a donor heart! I'm happy to say he is doing extremely well, and the future looks bright for him. Now that I have some free time, I also want to thank you for the follow-up with the additional information and the improved outlook. Lance and I know that Chloroquine phosphate when used properly works wonders with these maladies.
As for this med wiping out algae, I know of someone simply using it to eliminate algae on live rock by placing the rock in a plastic barrel and treating with this med. According to them, the rock came out of the barrel looking like new after two treatments of 20 ppm two weeks apart. Of course, besides ridding these maladies and algae, another plus with this med is that it will not negatively affect the filtration bacterium, as do many others in the treating vessel. Therefore treated rock, such as in this case, was still effective for filtration purposes. As for reducing cyano, that's interesting, and we need more scientific investigation into this aspect.
Furthermore, when lowering SG for a hyposalinity treatment, do it all at one time. It is 'not' necessary to do it slowly, i.e., over several days, as that only allows the window of opportunity for parasites to lengthen, thereby gaining a better foothold. But when going the opposite direction, whether introduced to a similar SG level in the main tank or only .002 higher than it was in the QT tank, that would be OK. But from thereon, raise SG in the main tank only .002 per day until you reach the desired SG.
And Lance's thought about two similar hawkfish species in the same tank is a good one! I've seen several situations where look-alikes lived in perfect harmony, probably because they were of the opposite sex. Then again, I've seen just the opposite, causing stress between the look-alikes 'and' their other tankmates, which in turn caused everyone stress, including the aquarist. And this 'stress' factor often caused various maladies, such as what may have been your nemesis for many years, and that's not counting the graying of the aquarium keeper's hair. I would rethink this aspect, and possibly give one to a local shop for future credit towards another purchase.
Enjoy,
Bob
